Curse

Mahdi · Aug 21, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

I'm somewhat new to Guild Wars. I'm not looking to be completely hardcore or follow any sort of cookie cutter build. I'm just looking to be moderately successful in pve while questing with my friends.

I chose Ranger/Monk. I am also intending to use a pet, because I like the novelty. So far I've been concentrating my points in Expertise, Beastmastery, Marksmanship, and Healing Prayers. I don't intend to use any other trees.

Does anybody have any advice for a pet-utilizing healing ranger?

Pick Me · Aug 21, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

I was once like you, I have a R/Mo and I wanted a pet too. Sadly, the further I went into the game, the less time I used my pet.

In order to get the most damage out of your pet, put beast master to 12. To get the most damage out of your bow, put marksmanship to 12. Expertise will lower the cost of energy for all non-spell skills that you have, so comfort animal will heal your pet well with little energy used. I would not use any healing prayers, just use mend ailment and rebirth.

Get runes for Marksmanship, beastmastery and expertise. If you want all four attributes, you will not be able to maximize any one stat.

What I did, was have Expertise: 2, Marksmanship 12, Beastmastery 12, Wildernes Surivial 4. Using minior runes and a mask.

I don't have a build for you, but if you look for a pure Ranger build (including beastmaster build) you can come up with something to your liking.

Good luck, and have fun.

Sha Noran · Aug 21, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

What I did, was have Expertise: 2, Marksmanship 12, Beastmastery 12, Wildernes Surivial 4. Using minior runes and a mask.

... Please, please, do not disregard your Primary Attribute (Expertise) like that.

Mahdi: There are a large variety of builds and attribute spreads already here in this forum board, and I'd encourage you to browse through them and see if you can find something there that looks good.

Amy Awien · Aug 22, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

you will not be able to maximize any one stat.

What I did, was have Expertise: 2, Marksmanship 12, Beastmastery 12, Wildernes Surivial 4. Using minior runes and a mask.

Maximizing any one stat is frequently not a good idea, since the cost increases when there are more ranks in a stat, while the benefits grow slower.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Attribute
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Attribute_point_spending

Pick Me · Aug 22, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Maximizing any one stat is frequently not a good idea, since the cost increases when there are more ranks in a stat, while the benefits grow slower.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Attribute
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Attribute_point_spending

Okay, first off, I mean no disrespect to Expertise. Its a good attribute in of itself, but I don't run into energy problems (rarely anyway), so I don't need Expertise to be like 12.

I don't have any runes for Marksmanship or Beastmastery, so I don't have any other points to bump up Expertise or Wilderness Survival.

With Runes, all you need is to hit the 12 mark in an attribute, so you don't waste attribute points. 12 in an attribute will give you more abilities from your skills (damage, healing, etc.), and allow your attacks to be at 100% (marksmanship at 12 will give you the full damage from your bow, anything less is a decrease in its damage; same with your pet = beast mastery).

Amy Awien · Aug 22, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

In general, 12 is a fine goal (though some skills have 'breakpoints' at 13 or 14), with a few runes and a mask you can easily get 3 stats on 12/13

SnipiousMax · Aug 22, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Maximizing any one stat is frequently not a good idea, since the cost increases when there are more ranks in a stat, while the benefits grow slower.

I don't agree with that. If you are playing a damage build, Mark's should be 16, without question. If you are trapping, then Wilderness Survival should be 16. If you are a warrior running less than 16 in a primary attribute, you are missing out on something very very basic. To say that you should not max a stat because of declining returns is not true. Criticals, added damage, and other benefits cannot be overlooked when considering how many points to put into an attribute. Frequently maximizing one stat that forms the basis of your build is ALWAYS a good idea. There are exceptions, but they are few. You're going to have a more powerful character the fewer attributes you have your points spread in.

Amy Awien · Aug 22, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I don't agree with that. If you are playing a damage build, Mark's should be 16, without question.

Nobody said much about pure damage builds, not a ranger's territory anyway.

But even if you go damage, I do question that dogma.
Pet and Bow combined, for instance, does more damage then a marksmanship-only bow.
Wilderness Survival has effective preparations, Kindle Arrows for instance adds 20 damage (@12 WS) to your arrows and Apply Poison ... 13 seconds ([email protected]) of 8 HP/sec is >100 HP, and it can be applied against multiple targets.

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To say that you should not max a stat because of declining returns is not true.

But it is true, no matter how often you say it is not, that the returns decline. From 0-12 every rank incremement yields approx +9% (base)damage, after 12 it's only +3.5%. It's less - and there is nothing to compensate.

Although there may be builds where it is ok, blindlyopting for 16 in a weapon stat is not a good idea. It is not my opinion that one should not (as in never) maximize a stat, just that maximizing should not be automatic.

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Criticals, added damage, and other benefits cannot be overlooked when considering how many points to put into an attribute.

You'll have to weigh different options and their benefits, and not just blindly maximize one stat.

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Frequently maximizing one stat that forms the basis of your build is ALWAYS a good idea. There are exceptions, but they are few.

Maximizing one stat is certainly not a good idea if the basis of your build is in multiple stats. Many builds have important skills that are linked to more then one or two attrbiutes.

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You're going to have a more powerful character the fewer attributes you have your points spread in.

This is so extremely generalized that it has become nonsense.

SnipiousMax · Aug 23, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

But it is true, no matter how often you say it is not, that the returns decline. From 0-12 every rank incremement yields approx +9% (base)damage, after 12 it's only +3.5%. It's less - and there is nothing to compensate.

Quote:

Marksmanship is a ranger attribute that increases the damage and critical hit rate of bow attacks. There are a large number of Marksmanship skills and these predominantly increase bow attack damage and interrupt enemies.
Retrieved from "http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Marksmanship"

I'm not denying the declining returns... I'm just saying that shouldn't be your only reason not to max an attribute.

You'll notice that there are three things it mentions in the description of the Marksmanship attribute. You've only acknowledged one of them. So I'd start reading here. In addition to the increase in base damage, you also enjoy an increased percentage to Critical hits, and increased damage from Marksman skills. Base damage is increased in diminishing returns... but it IS increased.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Nobody said much about pure damage builds, not a ranger's territory anyway.

You'll notice that I did not include the word 'pure' when I made my statement. Not a Ranger's territory? Yet they do it very well. You do not need many points dedicated to the 'utility' aspect of a ranger. They fufill the roles they were designed to play fairly easily without sacrificing damage output. In PvE where gameplay is essentially about steamrolling mobs, while not getting steamrolled, any character that is not dealing damage, whether directly or indirectly, or mitigating damage (monks) is dead weight. Yes, the ranger has alot of utility. Yes there are many things we can do. But as damage dealers, whether you chose to focus on it or not, Rangers easily hold their own.

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But even if you go damage, I do question that dogma.
Pet and Bow combined, for instance, does more damage then a marksmanship-only bow.

Yes, but a dedicated beastmaster or a dedicated bowman can maintain the damage output much longer than a hybrid. My earlier edit got lost in a system error, but I had intended to go back and acknowledge the hybrid exceptions. They deal more damage initially, but as their energy drops, the damage output drops as well. It depends on the scope of the comparision which will deal more damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

Wilderness Survival has effective preparations, Kindle Arrows for instance adds 20 damage (@12 WS) to your arrows and Apply Poison ... 13 seconds ([email protected]) of 8 HP/sec is >100 HP, and it can be applied against multiple targets.

Apply poison does not need many points at all in Wilderness survival to be an effecitve means of damage dealing. Apply poison is usually something you use when you're doing something else (ie... cripshot). If you are playing an apply ranger, you usually tab through targets, spreading the poison, and so the duration does not have to be very long to be effective. But really you have to have a very good primary function for apply to be super effective. Just tabbing through poisoning things isn't neccesarily a function in of itself.

Kindle, I'm not fond of. Especilaly if that is your only reason for bring wilderness survival. One it deals damage in packets rather than +damage, and as such is reduced by armor (so the actual damage gained is misleading). Second, If you are specing for damage, again you have to look at the scope. Putting 12 points into wilderness means that you have to drop Marks or expertise or both. If you drop marks, the base damage drops, your bow attacks + damage drops, and your critical attack rate drops. If you drop expertise then you cannot maintain your damage as long. If you do both, then the negatives aren't as bad, but there's twice as many of them. Since most Rangers keep Expertise at the break points... that means your dropping it from Marks. Rather than split your points evenly into two attributes to deal damage. Why not pile them into one, use RtW and avoid the problems mentioned? In nearly every comparision I've done, the damage gained or lost from either option is negligible, so why even bother spliting yoru attributes like that for little to no gain, or even a loss? Practice is very different than theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

Although there may be builds where it is ok, blindlyopting for 16 in a weapon stat is not a good idea. It is not my opinion that one should not (as in never) maximize a stat, just that maximizing should not be automatic.

Of course it shouldn't be done Automaticly. Neither should blindly opting not to put 16 in an attribute for an imagined gain. You should have a reason for spreading your attributes, and it should be a good one. Something that gives you noticable improvement in areas that would be hindered otherwise. There are several notable Ranger builds where a max stat isn't needed (ie... Cripshot Ranger, Choking Gas Ranger, etc.) But those are builds set to fill a certain role. In a normal everyday situation, you need to look at what you'll be doing most of the time. If it's auto-attacking or using bow attacks... then it should only lead that most of your points should be backing that function. If it's dancing around droping traps... then again, it should be reflected in your attributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

You'll have to weigh different options and their benefits, and not just blindly maximize one stat.

I couldn't agree more. But I've found that making my stats equal across the boards really doesn't get me much in the way of utility, while seriously crippling my offensive contribution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

Maximizing one stat is certainly not a good idea if the basis of your build is in multiple stats. Many builds have important skills that are linked to more then one or two attrbiutes.

And in most cases those important skills are every bit as effective with a smaller amount in the attribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

This is so extremely generalized that it has become nonsense.

Same could be said of the blanket statement saying that maxing an attribute is mostly a bad idea.

Whether you believe it's nonsense or not. MM's run 16 in death. Monks generally focus on either Healing or Protecting, and never do smiting at the same time. Hybrids have their uses, and there are very powerful builds that run without max stats... But how can a 12 Sword warrior compare to a 16 sword warrior, regardless of what gains the 12 sword thinks he's getting?

Maria The Princess · Aug 23, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

how long have you been playing the game? you will have to choose between bow or pet, but that does not mean you will have to give either up. you have to concentrate your damage on either pet or bow.

if on pet: 16 BM, +minimun required by your bow

if on Bow: 16 marksmanship +9 or 8 in BM

after many testing i fing that this is the most convnient way. rest dump in expertise (the *godly* attribute that i try to never have less then 9) and whatever left in wildernrss. i dont have GW on this PC, so i cant tell you the EXACT attributes, ill edit my post later on today

about your pet, the less points that you put in him the less damage he will do. so you will have to concentrate your damage in 1 area, and second have more like a support line.

Amy Awien · Aug 23, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I'm not denying the declining returns... I'm just saying that shouldn't be your only reason not to max an attribute.

You'll notice that there are three things it mentions in the description of the Marksmanship attribute. You've only acknowledged one of them. So I'd start reading here.

Don't patronize me, I've refrained from giving you any links as I felt that would be disrespectfull. I've done the numbers, do some number crunching yourself. The diminishing returns are part of the reason to start looking at skills other then what is in marksmanship, as soon as you hit 12.

The chance of getting a critical hit is 22.9% at marks 16 and @12 it's 17.4
With 16 marks, the DL is 68, at 12 it's 60, the damageratio between them is 2^(8/40) = 1.15

Using a max damage 15-28 +15% customized +20% bow (not a horn bow), at 12 marks this does 21.5*1.15*1.2 = 30 damage on average, at 16 marks this is 21.5*1.15*1.2*1.15 = 34 damage on average.

A critical hit scores max damage at -20EAL, or 1.41 times the damage. At 12 marks I find: 28*1.15*1.2*1.41 = 54, at 16 marks: 28*1.15*1.2*1.41*1.15=63.

At 16 marks you score a critical 22.9% of the time, the total base arrowdamage then is (22.9*63 + 77.1*34) / 100 = 40.6
At 12 marks this is (17.4*54 + 82.6*30) / 100 = 34.2

The gain for all your efforts in maximizing is only 6.4.

Kindle Arrows adds 20 damage at WS=12, Read the Wind 10. Kindle more then makes up for the damage added by the higher marksmanship.

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You'll notice that I did not include the word 'pure' when I made my statement.

As I never stated that maximizing a single stat is always out of the question. I do question the dogma of maximizing marksmanship.

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Yes, but a dedicated beastmaster or a dedicated bowman can maintain the damage output much longer than a hybrid.

A hybrid can maintain a high damage output indefinately and I don't see how one can maintain longer then that? I've played a hybrid and never got into energy problems.

Quote:

... acknowledge the hybrid exceptions. They deal more damage initially, but as their energy drops, the damage output drops as well.

I doubt you have examined and tested every hybrid possible so I do not see how you can make such a generalized claim. I've played with hybrids, I know they can do a load of damage and they do not (have to) run out of energy.

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Apply poison does not need many points at all in Wilderness survival to be an effecitve means of damage dealing. Apply poison is usually something you use when you're doing something else (ie... cripshot). If you are playing an apply ranger, you usually tab through targets, spreading the poison, and so the duration does not have to be very long to be effective.

It is when you stay with one target that you don't need a long duration, since the poison will be apllied again and again. It is when you cycle through targets that I think you'd want a longer duration on your posion.

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Kindle, I'm not fond of. ... One it deals damage in packets rather than +damage, and as such is reduced by armor (so the actual damage gained is misleading).

Packets? What do you mean by that? It really doesn't matter that you get more, smaller numbers 34+20 still equals 54 and that is more then 51
The only thing I can think where seperate damage-packets are less usefull then one big one, is with damage reduction. And warrior damage-reduction applies only on physical damage and not on elemental.

RtW's bonus is armor ignoring damage, while Kindle's is not, that is true. But, basedamage is also affected by armor and the gain you had from a higher marksmanship is reduced. And conditions totally ignore armor. What is best depends on what you expect to encounter.

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Second, If you are specing for damage, again you have to look at the scope. Putting 12 points into wilderness means that you have to drop Marks or expertise or both. If you drop marks, the base damage drops, your bow attacks + damage drops, and your critical attack rate drops. If you drop expertise then you cannot maintain your damage as long.

See above for some numbers. A high WS Kindle gains 10 dmg compared to RtW, which is more then enough to compensate for the loss in basedamage.
There is no need to drop expertise, as the gain from decreasing marks by 2 or 3 points (from 16) is enough to increase WS from (near) nothing to medium-high.

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If you do both, then the negatives aren't as bad, but there's twice as many of them.

That is bullshit-reasoning.

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In nearly every comparision I've done, the damage gained or lost from either option is negligible, so why even bother spliting yoru attributes like that for little to no gain, or even a loss?

I haven't seen your comparisions yet.

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Practice is very different than theory.

Another meaningless statement that can be used to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything you want and we can all make any claim we like about 'in practice'.
Theory is the only thing we can use (on this board) because very few people have the background to do reliable measurements 'in practice'. When we use the known numbers at least we have something we can validate for ourselves.

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Of course it shouldn't be done Automaticly. Neither should blindly opting not to put 16 in an attribute for an imagined gain.

Kindle is not imagined, nor is Apply Posion, or Melandru's Arrows, Serpents Quickness, Trolls Unguent, Dryder's Defenses ....

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You should have a reason for spreading your attributes, and it should be a good one.

You should have a reason to put points in an attribute, be it when 'spreading' or when 'maximizing'. Maximizing itself should not be goal, but a means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

you will have to choose between bow or pet, but that does not mean you will have to give either up. you have to concentrate your damage on either pet or bow.

This is exactly what I think you'd better not do with a hybrid, because above twelve ranks the returns diminish while the costs increase steeply. Convenience while assigning attrib points is hardly relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

how long have you been playing the game?

I hope you can bring better arguments into a discussion.

Ceder · Aug 23, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

My most commonly used BM build is:

12 beast (8+3+1)
13 exp (12+1)
9 ws (7+2)
9 marks (8+1)

The skills i use is:

apply poison, kindle (depends on foes)
call of haste
tiger´s fury
enraged lunge {e}
troll unguent
comfort animal
charm animal
FREE SLOT (usually bring rebirth or possibly call of protection)

With that i can do dmg with bow and with pet. Enraged after tiger´s gives me max bonus and my pet does 100+ dmg on most enemies regardless of lvl

Dodo The Extinct · Aug 23, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Wow, Amy and Snipious have MASSIVE posts :P

lennymon · Aug 23, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

at basics Cedar's build will get you all the way through pve, one point I'd change though is the expertise, there are breakpoints at 12 and 14 expertise. at 12 all 5 cost skills cost 2 and at 14 all 10 costs drop to 4. 13 exp gives nothing over 12 so I'd go 12 since you are spreading points accross 4 attributes. the extra 20 points I'd drop into bm or marks. I also really think read the wind is highly underrated in pve, the numbers don't look as high at first glance true, but its additive as well as making more arrows hit due to decreased flight times. I personally can't imagine life without an interrupt, but this IS from a guy whos favorite build runs savage shot, punishing shot AND distracting shot

Amy Awien · Aug 23, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodo The Extinct

Wow, Amy and Snipious have MASSIVE posts :P

Yeah, I know.

And I've only replied to half of the material that was available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

... the expertise, there are breakpoints at 12 and 14 expertise. at 12 all 5 cost skills cost 2 and at 14 all 10 costs drop to 4. 13 exp gives nothing over 12 so I'd go 12

12 and 14 are breakpoints for 10E, 13 is the breakpoint for 5E skills:

12 -> 100 - 48% = 52% ... x 5 = 2.6 -> 3 ... x 10 = 5.2 -> 5
13 -> 100 - 52% = 48% ... x 5 = 2.4 -> 2 ... x 10 = 4.8 -> 5
14 -> 100 - 56% = 44% ... x 5 = 2.2 -> 2 ... x 10 = 4.4 -> 4

SnipiousMax · Aug 23, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

Don't patronize me, I've refrained from giving you any links as I felt that would be disrespectfull.

I apologize. I didn't neccesarily intend for it to show any disrespect, although I wasn't too careful about it not being taken that way either. As guildwiki was quoted ealier, I did want this link to contribute, as I felt it has something to add. I apologize for my short sightedness.

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<snip> ...calculations and numbers...<snip>

Your numbers don't (and can't effectively) show the added damage from +damage skill on the marks line. This is also the case with your calculations for Kindle vs. RtW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amy

Kindle Arrows adds 20 damage at WS=12, Read the Wind 10. Kindle more then makes up for the damage added by the higher marksmanship.

This also does not take into account a higher expertise. Focusing on two attributes allows you to run them both higher than you would normally. Higher expertise means less energy required per attack skill, which means more damage over time. Even if you were absolutely in love with Kindle, it's very easy to have a 16/9/11 spread which gives you a +18 on kindle AND the increased damage form 16 marks. But personally I'd rather have more in expertise, and forget WS altogether.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

As I never stated that maximizing a single stat is always out of the question. I do question the dogma of maximizing marksmanship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

Maximizing any one stat is frequently not a good idea

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your initial post... but I'm sorry that one line is what sparked my intrest in the discussion to begin with. If that is not the case, then I apologize. Had the line said something along the lines of "is not always" or "sometimes", I proballly wouldn't have posted at all. Granted, my reply contained an equally polar comment... one I should have phrased better. But I still maintain, that there is more to be gained from maxing than your subsequent posts have stated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

A hybrid can maintain a high damage output indefinately and I don't see how one can maintain longer then that? I've played a hybrid and never got into energy problems.

This part of the Arguement would be helped if you could post an example. If you are bringing mostly pet skills or mostly bow skills, then I'd still have to say that maxing an attribute is a benefit. If you are running something like Tiger's Fury and Enraged Lunge, you can easily see how quickly your energy is depleted.

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I doubt you have examined and tested every hybrid possible so I do not see how you can make such a generalized claim. I've played with hybrids, I know they can do a load of damage and they do not (have to) run out of energy.

I haven't. But I've run alot of them, and I run them often. It requires alot of micromanaging to make sure you don't run out of energy too quickly, but you are nearly always running on an deficiet, where with many of the focused builds I've played, I can easily finish an entire mission without having to stop at all or having to conserve my energy use.

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It is when you stay with one target that you don't need a long duration, since the poison will be apllied again and again. It is when you cycle through targets that I think you'd want a longer duration on your posion.

The cycles occur quicly enough that it really doesn't need a long duration. You can easily have a 16/9/11 spread, so the duration is hardly a reason to sacrifice marks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

Packets? What do you mean by that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

RtW's bonus is armor ignoring damage, while Kindle's is not, that is true.

Something you already knew. Kindle deals the fire damage seperately from the arrow damage. So its like your dealing two fire attacks rather than one attack with +damage. This can be good and bad... But I still prefer straight unconditional unreducable damage, unless I'm facing something weak against fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

Kindle is not imagined, nor is Apply Posion, or Melandru's Arrows, Serpents Quickness, Trolls Unguent, Dryder's Defenses ....

No they are not, but you do not have to sacrifice a max stat to get the most out of them. Dryder's defenses can be replaced by skills in the Expertise line. Troll ungent really only needs a few points to be as effective as it can be as as a self heal (not one of my favorites either). Apply/ Melandru's/Kindle again, if you are using these skills, it wouldn't be a stretch to keep 16 in marks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

You should have a reason to put points in an attribute, be it when 'spreading' or when 'maximizing'. Maximizing itself should not be goal, but a means.

Again, I think we're agreeing here.

I'm not saying Hybrids are bad. Just like you are saying its not bad in of itself to max a stat (if I'm on the same page now...). But I don't think you lose as much as you say when you max any attribute.

To be perfectly honest, I think the meat of our arguements is the same. You're saying the advantage in boosting one attribute is slight, and I'm saying that the advantage to boosting secondary attributes for utility/etc is slight.

<edit>

Point I wanted to make, but failed to mention. The difference between running 12 and 16 in a weaponskill, is roughly 15-20%. You'd consider someone very new and inexperienced if they were limiting their damage by using a weapon without a damage modifier or without customizing it, so why would you limit yourself with attributes?

lennymon · Aug 23, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

\

12 and 14 are breakpoints for 10E, 13 is the breakpoint for 5E skills:

12 -> 100 - 48% = 52% ... x 5 = 2.6 -> 3 ... x 10 = 5.2 -> 5
13 -> 100 - 52% = 48% ... x 5 = 2.4 -> 2 ... x 10 = 4.8 -> 5
14 -> 100 - 56% = 44% ... x 5 = 2.2 -> 2 ... x 10 = 4.4 -> 4

I stand corrected and newly informed

Amy Awien · Aug 23, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Your numbers don't (and can't effectively) show the added damage from +damage skill on the marks line. This is also the case with your calculations for Kindle vs. RtW.

Where are your numbers? You know, with the +damage, their difference at 12 and 16 marks, and their damage and energyload per minute and all that.

I've given enough numbers, now it is your turn to come up with something. Start digging

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This also does not take into account a higher expertise. Focusing on two attributes allows you to run them both higher than you would normally.

13, 14 tops in expertise would really be all you need. Starting with 12 ranks (without runes) in expertise may be a bit over the top to reach 13 when 10-ish would do. Some uses may do fine with only 9 expertise, other 13. Finding the right expertise level is a case of trial and error aiming for the dreaded 'Not enough energy' to become very rare.

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding your initial post...

I admit that it was an odd choice of words ... "frequently not a good idea" :S

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If you are bringing mostly pet skills or mostly bow skills, then I'd still have to say that maxing an attribute is a benefit. If you are running something like Tiger's Fury and Enraged Lunge, you can easily see how quickly your energy is depleted.

No, not really. Tiger's Fury itself is expensive at 10E, reduced to 5E, every 10 seconds, but still only half your regen. Enraged Lunge is only 5E, 2E with 13 expertise, every 5 seconds.

And even if energy gets thin, it's skill selection and usage that is the problem, I don't see how incrementing expertise beyond 13 (14 tops) would help a build with mostly 5E and 10E

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The cycles occur quicly enough that it really doesn't need a long duration.

Maybe, longer durations means more targets can be kept poisoned, but between 10 and 12 WS there's only one target.

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You can easily have a 16/9/11 spread, so the duration is hardly a reason to sacrifice marks.

If 9 expertise is fine for the build, why not. If you need more expertise, I'd look at marks to decrease first.

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Something you already knew. Kindle deals the fire damage seperately from the arrow damage. So its like your dealing two fire attacks rather than one attack with +damage. This can be good and bad... But I still prefer straight unconditional unreducable damage, unless I'm facing something weak against fire.

They both deal the damage seperately, I think, but the RtW and FW damagebonus are added to that one number you see. The single number may look better, and indeed the RtW/FW damagepart is armor ignoring, but the basedamage is not.

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No they are not, but you do not have to sacrifice a max stat to get the most out of them. Dryder's defenses can be replaced by skills ... if you are using these skills, it wouldn't be a stretch to keep 16 in marks.

They were just examples of some usefull WS skills, I wasn't really planning on discussing each of them and their possible replacements. You can get some effect from them at lower levels, but you'd really have to look at how much effect in a specific case. And when marks eats half of the points it may get a bit diffcult to add both expertise and wilderness survival at decently effective high levels.

But whatever you choose, explore some alternatives and keep your freedom in making your own, possibly non-standard choice.

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Again, I think we're agreeing here.
....
You're saying the advantage in boosting one attribute is slight, and I'm saying that the advantage to boosting secondary attributes for utility/etc is slight.

That's an acceptable way of putting in.

SnipiousMax · Aug 24, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

Where are your numbers? You know, with the +damage, their difference at 12 and 16 marks, and their damage and energyload per minute and all that.

Seems to me that this comment isn't much different than the "meaningless statement that can be used to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything you want" you accused me of ealier. It's enough that YOU didn't consider it. Even with the numbers, you'd say the difference didn't justify the cost, and I'd disagree. I really fail to see the point at this moment in time. No disrespect intended for the effort you've already put into your numbers. You have demonstrated very well why you consider it a poor choice in many situations. I'm not disagreeing with the number's you've posted in any way, but I get something different from seeing the raw numbers you've provided. What I disagree with then, is that you are turning something positive into a negative. The fact remains that there is an increase in damage. Lowering your potential damage in the name of originality does not gurantee an effective build, just as blindly running 16 in marks doesn't gurantee you'll have the highest damage output. As I said, the reasoning should be solid, and the benefits real and considerable behind your point distribution. I always ask the question: "Do I really need this skill?" And "Is there another skill that will do this just as well in another attribute?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snipe

The difference between running 12 and 16 in a weaponskill, is roughly 15-20%.

That's enough for me. If you don't think that is enough reason to spec 16 in marks, than that's your discretion. You can't use Kindle as a substitute, because you can just as easily use it whether or not you have a max attribute. So the 'making up for the damage lost' is irrelevent, because you can spec to bring kindle, and still get the damage out of it.

I will however concede that my expertise comments were not accurate, as it's just as easy to run 13/14 in the situations you've offered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

They were just examples of some usefull WS skills, I wasn't really planning on discussing each of them and their possible replacements. You can get some effect from them at lower levels, but you'd really have to look at how much effect in a specific case.

But that's really the reason behind the disagreement. You've stated numerous times that you lose more than you gain from specing a max attribute in Marks, but you've not given any examples of how the effeciency of other skills you would use are affected, while I contend that the skills from other attributes would be just as useful if you speced lower in the attribute in question. Useful is the key word here. Durations may be longer, it may mean a few points difference in a skill here or there... but the fact remains, that you can still do many things, have room for originality, AND run 16 in Marks. This is not to say that ALL builds should be running 16 in marks. In the right atmosphere, or with the right group you're free to run any number of builds that don't require marks at all, let alone at max.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy

But whatever you choose, explore some alternatives and keep your freedom in making your own, possibly non-standard choice.

I change builds very regularly, I play my ranger any number of ways. The thing I enjoy most about the class is the sheer number of options... BUT, it's important to consider things before you decide on a more 'non-standard' build. It's important to consider what your team needs, what situations you'll be facing, what types of mobs are in an area, and what types of skills you 'can't' live without in a certain mission or area. But when damage is often found lacking in the standard PuG, and when damage is ALWAYS found lacking in a group of Henchies... it stands to reason you would want to maximize that aspect of what you have to offer. No you shouldn't always run 16 in marks. But it is a far cry from a bad decision, or a poor choice of skills, or a poor use of a ranger to spec 16.

Amy Awien · Aug 24, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Seems to me that this comment isn't much different than the "meaningless statement that can be used to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything you want" you accused me of ealier. It's enough that YOU didn't consider it.

That is incorrect. I'd have to know which attacks are on the skillbar before I can add them in. But to be honest, it is too much work at this point.

Quote:

What I disagree with then, is that you are turning something positive into a negative. The fact remains that there is an increase in damage. Lowering your potential damage in the name of originality does not gurantee an effective build, just as blindly running 16 in marks doesn't gurantee you'll have the highest damage output.

The intention of moving around points is not be original but, when damage output is the goal, to increase damage, or when damage is not the goal, to increase the effectiveness and useability of whatever build it is. Lowering one stat a few to increase another by many may (or may not) increase that effectiveness (damage or otherwise) but you can not really say much about that in general without examining the skills and their use.

But that doesn't really differ much from:

Quote:

As I said, the reasoning should be solid, and the benefits real and considerable behind your point distribution. I always ask the question: "Do I really need this skill?" And "Is there another skill that will do this just as well in another attribute?"

which seems more usefull as general advice.

Quote:

You can't use Kindle as a substitute, because you can just as easily use it whether or not you have a max attribute. So the 'making up for the damage lost' is irrelevent, because you can spec to bring kindle, and still get the damage out of it.

Not quite, because taking one or two points from a maxxed marks could mean 4-8 points more in WS - depending on the earlier point distribution - which could be a lot of extra damage, from Kindle for instance.

Quote:

but you've not given any examples of how the effeciency of other skills you would use are affected,

Kindle, for example, adds 20 damage at WS 12, I gave that example. On a 12/12 build there was no use for Kindle, so you might originally have brought RtW, at ~10 bonus damage. Re-speccing results in about 5 less basedamage (marks doesn't drop all down to 12) and RtW substituted by Kindle ... -10 + 20 ... that could net +5 damage per arrow, on base attacks.

Another example would be where you originally had 12/10/8 and now drop marks by 1(!) to 11 and increase WS by 2 to 11/10/10. Kindle gains about 3 points damage while, basedamage will, I estimate, loose 1.5. Apply poison would gain 2 seconds, which is roughly one more opponent being kept poisoned, or up to 8 foes each poisoned 2 seconds longer, or 16 HP each, for 8 * 2 * 8 = 128 damage in total.

Quote:

but the fact remains, that you can still do many things, have room for originality, AND run 16 in Marks. This is not to say that ALL builds should be running 16 in marks. In the right atmosphere, or with the right group you're free to run any number of builds that don't require marks at all, let alone at max.

Yes, that sounds about right. Only our imagination sets the limits.